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	<title>Comments on: Folding AQ offsuit Preflop</title>
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	<link>http://www.countingtheodds.com/2010/03/folding-aq-offsuit-preflop/</link>
	<description>A Mathematical Journey into the World of Poker</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:56:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: JH1</title>
		<link>http://www.countingtheodds.com/2010/03/folding-aq-offsuit-preflop/comment-page-1/#comment-131</link>
		<dc:creator>JH1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 05:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.countingtheodds.com/?p=133#comment-131</guid>
		<description>Raising limpers: Raising is correct but you don&#039;t state the correct reason. Narrowing the field is not a reason to put money in the pot. Think about limping ranges - suited connectors, random broadways, other random hands Qx and lower. AQ is way ahead of those hands and they will limp/call with those so raising AQ is for value first - anything else (information, isolation etc etc) is simply a by-product.

After getting limp/reraised, you&#039;re not really looking at equity correctly here in my opinion. You have 24% equity against those ranges &lt;i&gt;if&lt;/i&gt; you get to see all 5 cards (hot/cold equity). If you call, you only get to see 3 cards on the flop and most likely have to pay more to see more cards, and therefore your EV calculation does not represent the true cost of realizing that equity.

Quick example: If you hold a flush draw on the flop vs a made hand you have 36% equity. If the pot is $2 and you have to call $1 you are getting 2:1 and according to your EV calc you have to call. But you are only 20% (4:1) to improve on the next card and most likely have to pay more to see the river. This is obviously where implied odds come into play but I hope you see my point wrt the EV calc vs realizing hot/cold equity  in isolation.

And in your hand, you don&#039;t really have a lot of implied odds against the range that you assessed. If the flop is Axx or Qxx and the money goes in, you&#039;re probably crushed by AK,QQ+ because 99-JJ (and QQ/KK on Axx, AK on Qxx) are not stacking off. Therefore you are attempting to draw to a one pair reverse implied odds hand, not an implied odds hand.

So if you think you&#039;ve assessed those ranges correctly, you could just shove preflop to add some fold equity to the equation if BB&#039;s range is really that wide for a 3bet out of position. If you shove and he only calls with JJ+,AK, and UTG folds, you have about 30% equity:

x = required fold equity to breakeven, assuming 100bb stacks
breakeven = pot * FE% + (1-FE%)(%win * profit - %lose * loss)

0 = 48.5x + (1-x)(0.30 * 127.5 - 0.70 * 94.5)
0 = 48.5x + (1-x)(-27.9)
0 = 48.5x - 27.9 + 27.9x
x = 0.36 or 36% fold equity

77+,AT+,QJ+ is 12% of all hands. If we can get him to fold 36% of that range (4.3% of all hands) we have a profitable play. 77-TT, QJ, KJ might fold to a shove and those make up the required fold equity. If he folds any more of the hands in that range you profit.

If this is not an accurate range and he is actually tighter, you should just fold preflop because of the equity realization problem, the out of position problem, the reverse implied odds problem, along with decreased preflop fold equity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raising limpers: Raising is correct but you don&#8217;t state the correct reason. Narrowing the field is not a reason to put money in the pot. Think about limping ranges &#8211; suited connectors, random broadways, other random hands Qx and lower. AQ is way ahead of those hands and they will limp/call with those so raising AQ is for value first &#8211; anything else (information, isolation etc etc) is simply a by-product.</p>
<p>After getting limp/reraised, you&#8217;re not really looking at equity correctly here in my opinion. You have 24% equity against those ranges <i>if</i> you get to see all 5 cards (hot/cold equity). If you call, you only get to see 3 cards on the flop and most likely have to pay more to see more cards, and therefore your EV calculation does not represent the true cost of realizing that equity.</p>
<p>Quick example: If you hold a flush draw on the flop vs a made hand you have 36% equity. If the pot is $2 and you have to call $1 you are getting 2:1 and according to your EV calc you have to call. But you are only 20% (4:1) to improve on the next card and most likely have to pay more to see the river. This is obviously where implied odds come into play but I hope you see my point wrt the EV calc vs realizing hot/cold equity  in isolation.</p>
<p>And in your hand, you don&#8217;t really have a lot of implied odds against the range that you assessed. If the flop is Axx or Qxx and the money goes in, you&#8217;re probably crushed by AK,QQ+ because 99-JJ (and QQ/KK on Axx, AK on Qxx) are not stacking off. Therefore you are attempting to draw to a one pair reverse implied odds hand, not an implied odds hand.</p>
<p>So if you think you&#8217;ve assessed those ranges correctly, you could just shove preflop to add some fold equity to the equation if BB&#8217;s range is really that wide for a 3bet out of position. If you shove and he only calls with JJ+,AK, and UTG folds, you have about 30% equity:</p>
<p>x = required fold equity to breakeven, assuming 100bb stacks<br />
breakeven = pot * FE% + (1-FE%)(%win * profit &#8211; %lose * loss)</p>
<p>0 = 48.5x + (1-x)(0.30 * 127.5 &#8211; 0.70 * 94.5)<br />
0 = 48.5x + (1-x)(-27.9)<br />
0 = 48.5x &#8211; 27.9 + 27.9x<br />
x = 0.36 or 36% fold equity</p>
<p>77+,AT+,QJ+ is 12% of all hands. If we can get him to fold 36% of that range (4.3% of all hands) we have a profitable play. 77-TT, QJ, KJ might fold to a shove and those make up the required fold equity. If he folds any more of the hands in that range you profit.</p>
<p>If this is not an accurate range and he is actually tighter, you should just fold preflop because of the equity realization problem, the out of position problem, the reverse implied odds problem, along with decreased preflop fold equity.</p>
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		<title>By: longpost4low$</title>
		<link>http://www.countingtheodds.com/2010/03/folding-aq-offsuit-preflop/comment-page-1/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>longpost4low$</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 14:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.countingtheodds.com/?p=133#comment-83</guid>
		<description>50 cent 1 dollar blinds...lol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>50 cent 1 dollar blinds&#8230;lol</p>
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		<title>By: Derrick Kwa</title>
		<link>http://www.countingtheodds.com/2010/03/folding-aq-offsuit-preflop/comment-page-1/#comment-58</link>
		<dc:creator>Derrick Kwa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 21:05:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.countingtheodds.com/?p=133#comment-58</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t play 6 mas, so I don&#039;t quite know.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don&#039;t think he&#039;s bluffing completely here, I just feel like the game&#039;s a bit loose. Generally it feels like live games are looser than online (at least the ones I play). I&#039;m thinking &quot;implied odds&quot; as in, if I hit an A, and he has KK, he&#039;s likely to call a bet. I could be wrong, but that&#039;s how I feel - that I can probably get at least one more bet in.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;A more detailed look at why I think calling seems like an ok option can be found in the update. But yeah, I don&#039;t know. Intuitively, I feel like I should be folding (which is why I folded), but the math I&#039;ve done seems to show otherwise. So either I&#039;m making faulty assumptions (wrong ranges, etc), or my intuition is wrong, or I&#039;m missing something? I don&#039;t quite know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#39;t play 6 mas, so I don&#39;t quite know.</p>
<p>I don&#39;t think he&#39;s bluffing completely here, I just feel like the game&#39;s a bit loose. Generally it feels like live games are looser than online (at least the ones I play). I&#39;m thinking &#8220;implied odds&#8221; as in, if I hit an A, and he has KK, he&#39;s likely to call a bet. I could be wrong, but that&#39;s how I feel &#8211; that I can probably get at least one more bet in.</p>
<p>A more detailed look at why I think calling seems like an ok option can be found in the update. But yeah, I don&#39;t know. Intuitively, I feel like I should be folding (which is why I folded), but the math I&#39;ve done seems to show otherwise. So either I&#39;m making faulty assumptions (wrong ranges, etc), or my intuition is wrong, or I&#39;m missing something? I don&#39;t quite know.</p>
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		<title>By: Mac</title>
		<link>http://www.countingtheodds.com/2010/03/folding-aq-offsuit-preflop/comment-page-1/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>Mac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 20:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.countingtheodds.com/?p=133#comment-57</guid>
		<description>This is standard for 6 max. Why would you think about it for 2 seconds in a 10 max game..?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;When i&#039;m 20 tabling 6max 10nl, I never once was all in with aq or even 3bet unless it was aq suited and in position vs a raise from c/o or button.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And I would fold all day long. A guy who bluffs alot is also going to float a lot which means you can never bet unless you hit and hope to god he doesn&#039;t have you crushed. You have no &quot;implied&quot; odds if he bluffs because he 3bet. You would be better off calling but when you raise and he re raises, he might crush you but I don&#039;t know about live poker to much..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is standard for 6 max. Why would you think about it for 2 seconds in a 10 max game..?</p>
<p>When i&#39;m 20 tabling 6max 10nl, I never once was all in with aq or even 3bet unless it was aq suited and in position vs a raise from c/o or button.</p>
<p>And I would fold all day long. A guy who bluffs alot is also going to float a lot which means you can never bet unless you hit and hope to god he doesn&#39;t have you crushed. You have no &#8220;implied&#8221; odds if he bluffs because he 3bet. You would be better off calling but when you raise and he re raises, he might crush you but I don&#39;t know about live poker to much..</p>
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		<title>By: A Closer Look at the AQo Hand &#171; Counting The Odds</title>
		<link>http://www.countingtheodds.com/2010/03/folding-aq-offsuit-preflop/comment-page-1/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>A Closer Look at the AQo Hand &#171; Counting The Odds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 15:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.countingtheodds.com/?p=133#comment-55</guid>
		<description>[...] Contact              &#171; Folding AQ offsuit Preflop [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Contact              &laquo; Folding AQ offsuit Preflop [...]</p>
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